Crossroads Fellowship

Tuesday, January 08, 2008

Trees?????

This past Sunday evening we did our third installment of exposing false teachings, a.k.a. heresy, at Crossroads Fellowship. That evenings message has me greatly concerned about the future of the C&MA and the church in America in general. Right now I am exposing heresy in videos that are called Noomas that are published by Zondervan and star Rob Bell. This past Sunday we looked at video number three which is called Trees. I would like to talk about that a little bit here.

What is it that is so dangerous about the teaching on the video Trees? The thing that I see as being so dangerous is that Mr. Bell is about 95% right on what he says. Basically the point of the video is that we need to be doing something as Christians. This is a great point, we do need to be doing something. He also says we need to be spending our lives in service, also a great point. However it goes astray about the middle of the video when Mr. Bell states that we are pretty much doing nothing if what we are doing is spending our time trying to get people to believe the way we do. Here is what I heard with his comments, as did the others at church without my prompting. They heard Rob Bell say that evangelism is a waste of time. Rather than evangelize Rob would assert that we need to spend our time bringing heaven on earth and partnering with God to restore this fallen creation and transform the world into the kind of creation God intended it to be. He states at one point in the video that an ancient Jewish saying says that our good works are the seeds that are planting the trees in Eden. He then pronounces a benediction at the end that encourages us to plant the trees of paradise with our good works.

Another disturbing thing is that Mr. Bell goes so far as to say that Jesus condemned the practice of teaching others to believe as we believe. My response is, "He did?" Is the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20) a condemnation of us teaching people to believe what we believe, or is it a command to do exactly that? Rob says a lot of Christians sit around waiting on a future hope, waiting for creation to be redeemed by Jesus. He says that he believes that Jesus is going to redeem creation as well, but he believes he will do it through us. However scripture says something totally different. Let's look at what scripture says here.

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Titus 2:11-15

And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Revelation 21:5

While it is plain to see that we are supposed to do good works as Mr. Bell asserts, we see that waiting for the appearing of Christ is in fact a Biblical mandate. Our reason for living holy, and being good, is because God is holy and good and is coming back for us, not so that we can restore the fallen world, because God is going to recreate this fallen world. Rob condemns this future hope we wait for as being a false motivation in the Christian walk. Scripture however declares it to be so (in far more places than that just Titus and Revelation). I am concerned for the church as a whole because this is a false gospel. Mr. Bell's church at one point during a phone conversation told me personally that the Gospel we believe in was not the Gospel. Granted the person I was speaking with was an Associate Pastor and not Rob himself, but none the less Mars Hill Bible Church said they didn't believe that what I was getting at was the gospel. So in this phone conversation what was I getting at. Here is what I said.

I am laying on the street dying from being run over by a car. I look you in the face and tell you that I am scared and that I don't want to die and go to hell. What would you say to me. The Pastor told me that they (Mars Hill) did not believe that was the Gospel. He then proceeded to tell me that the Gospel was learning to live in communion with God here and now and help restore fallen creation. Which is the exact message of the Nooma video called Trees. What does scripture say about that?

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:6-9

So Mr. Bell teaches a different Gospel. What should our response be? This is why I am concerned for the church as a whole. But why specifically am I concerned about the C&MA. Well the easy answer is to point out that there are churches inside the C&MA that are extensively using Mr. Bell's teachings as sound, solid, biblical stuff. I would assert that this should not be so. That not only should this not be so, but his teachings should be forbidden from being used in any other manner other than for exposing heresy. But let's just go out on a limb and say that Mr. Bell's gospel is the same. What about his renouncing us waiting on a future hope? Well that teaching IS Biblical and the C&MA has long recognized that it is. Not only do we feel that it is Biblical we feel so strongly about it that we feel it is a VITAL truth. I present point 11 from our statement of faith for your consideration.

11. The Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is imminent and will be personal, visible, and pre-millennial. This is the believer's blessed hope and is a vital truth, which is an incentive to holy living and faithful service (Hebrews 10:37, Luke 21:27, Titus 2:11-14).

Will we as a church, a denomination, and as individual believers stand up for the truth? Or will we continue to allow false teachings, heresy, to be taught in our churches? I know that I may get a great deal of response about this post. I will be more than happy to chat, and even happier to sit down and watch Trees with you. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Mr. Bell has many other videos distorting the truth. Included is one named Bullhorn where Rob aggressively attacks evangelism, specifically aiming at stranger evangelism and street evangelism. A.W. Tozer became a Christian because of a street preacher preaching on the street. William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army, was a street preacher. Glenn Tingley (hope I spelled that right) was a street preacher and great Christian leader inside the C&MA. And our own founder, Dr. A.B. Simpson, founded the C&MA on street preaching to immigrant dock workers. Rather than attack evangelism methods used by these great men to produce lasting Kingdom results, we ought to be out using those methods which God says is calculated to bring about revival. No one is going to get saved from me doing good works, which are important, but they will be saved by the preaching of the Gospel.

For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Romans 10:13-17

177 Comments:

  • Preach the word of God everywhere and to all people. Use words only when absolutely necessary. It's like I've said before many times, words are cheap. If you're not walking the talk then it's best to just keep quiet about the whole thing because your words will be false and hollow and people will see right through it. The old saying of 'I can't hear your words because your actions are screaming at me' holds true as well. The most believed Christians by Non Christians are the ones who simply go about their day, living their lives completely in the Presence of God and being an extension of that Presence to others by their words and actions.

    By Blogger Alice, at 11:18 AM  

  • Alice,
    Good thoughts, I am glad that you can see that scripture actually commands us to use words. I agree that living a godly and upright life is important. But I have never had a person get saved because I was living for the Lord. They got saved when I told them what Jesus had done for them and they repented and believed. My lifestyle is just a platform from which to preach the word. Which I think is what you pointed out so well in your last sentance. A verbal witness without a lifestyle is useless, a lifestyle without a verbal witness is also useless. Thanks for your comments.

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 11:27 AM  

  • I think that it was painfully obvious from about the second sentence out of Mr. Bell's mouth that he has taken the Bible way out of context. First of all, Revelation is pretty clear about what will happen to the earth in the end times. I guess if you call war, plauges, earthquakes, all of the water turning to blood, etc. a good place to live then you can follow Rob Bell. I like the part where it says that God creates a NEW EARTH. Second, didn't Jesus say to go and preach the gospel to the nations? Isn't that what He did? I think if we need to do anything it would be to get over our pride, stop being scared and actualy witness to people. How does anyone think that others are going to hear about the salvation they can find in Christ if no one tells them. It's very sad to think that people are so unfamiliar with Gods word that they would fall for such an obvious mis-truth.

    By Anonymous Dan, at 8:15 PM  

  • Jerry,

    You are my hero, I will say it again.

    By Blogger Pastorboy, at 7:50 AM  

  • Nice job Jerry. Your information shows again that Rob Bell's neo-liberalism is more concerned with the bankrupt social gospel than with preaching the actual Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    And that’s because Bell doesn’t believe in the genuine Gospel as we can see by what you were told by a pastor at his emerging church.

    By Blogger Ken Silva, at 7:12 PM  

  • I am sorry you feel the way you do about my church. I corrected your wrong assumptions on my blog!
    If you have any questions about my church in the future I would love to answer them. In fact you are welcome to visit at anytime and we would love to take you out to dinner!
    Grace and Peace to you!

    By Anonymous Erica, at 10:04 PM  

  • I am not sure what Erica's comment means. I don't know what blog she is talking about.

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 10:18 PM  

  • It is a truncated gospel that focuses on the salvation of the soul alone. Certainly the saving of the soul is important it is not the ONLY purpose have in this life.

    We are to be good stewards of the earth. We are to concern ourselves with the here and now as well as the sweet by and by.

    In fact a road paved with good works is probably a better path to reaching our world than the road so many evangelicals take...a road that only has fire insurance salesmen traveling it.

    Your "gospel" and your view of "evangelism is colored by your eschatology. For those of us who are not of your persuasion..........we tend to see things over the long term. If Jesus could come at any moment there is no sense in doing any good works on this earth. Let's just get people ready to go the rapture.

    Pastor Bell may be a lot of things, heretic he is not. You dishonor a godly man by this accusation.

    By Anonymous Bruce Gerencser, at 10:36 PM  

  • I think Bruce has forgotten that it is God who calls the sinner who cannot come to Him because of he is dead, it is God who calls us to repentance, it is God who supplies our faith, it is God who sanctifies us who are saved, it is God who changes us from dead to alive-to being a new creation in Christ Jesus.
    The good deeds, as called to in Titus, are the fruits of a true conversion, again provided by God, prepared in advance, to those who submit and surrender their will.
    As evidenced by his latest tour, "The gods aren't angry," Bell is indeed teaching heresy.

    By Anonymous doc in a box, at 12:06 AM  

  • Sorry Doc,

    I don't buy your Calvinistic spin on the gospel. Been there, done that.

    And I don't think I said anything about salvation being by works.

    Are the gods really angry at everyone? How about you, Doc? Since you are one of the elect, was God ever really angry at you? Why did it matter since you were one of the elect?

    Bruce

    By Anonymous Bruce Gerencser, at 1:01 AM  

  • I agree with you. I came out of a C&MA Church. They are into the whole gamut of New Age Christianity. Tozer threw fire bombs at the false church organization. He would be ashamed to see what his denomination has come to. I also agree with Alice, but with this difference, even if the preaching of insincere people isn't the ideal, as long as it is the truth, people can still believe it. Even a Bible verse on a plastic comb is better than one without. Many "good deed" doing Christians were brought to the Lord by hirelings. Real Christians are even coming out of the Catholic Church. I'm not sure how the Holy Spirit works it out, but it does happen. I know that sounds cheap, but truth can come out of the mouth of an ass. Jesus said, "leave them alone."

    Steve Blackwell

    By Anonymous IndyWatchman, at 5:32 AM  

  • Bruce,
    Wow your blog is out of control. I clicked on your name and the filth that is on your blog with all the cussing in the Many Christian Men article is out of control. Also I can fully understand why you think Rob Bell is godly, because I read the article where you said you don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. I think that is where the problems start. If scripture can be wrong then you can not believe the parts you don't like. The doctrine of innerancy comes from the bible where it says:

    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
    2 Timothy 3:16-17

    I would encourage everyone here to just click on Bruces name which is blue and underlined. It will take you right to his blog site and you can see what I mean for yourself.

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 6:27 AM  

  • Ok after hunting I found Erica's site. Erica apparently goes to Mars Hill. She is pretty fired up about what I wrote. I am ok with that. Here is where you can find her blog. If you are shy don't go read it cause she bashes me pretty good, and one of her blog commentors actually says I am lying.

    http://www.joemartino.name/erica/2008/01/more-people-pla.html

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 6:29 AM  

  • P.S.

    She says in the first paragraph or to of this article that evangelism is a waste of time. Here is a quote:

    " They heard Rob Bell say that evangelism is a waste of time.

    Evangelism is a waste of time I could not agree with pastor Bell anymore on this one! The gospel is not saving people from Hell. To go around preaching this is a waste of time."

    It is pretty amazing how she leaves out in her article every reference Jesus makes about people going to hell.

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 6:32 AM  

  • I think there is a huge difference in bashing a person or attacking their logic or writing. I attacked you personally but I did question your motives and attitude. I am sorry if I came across that I was attacking you. Grace and Peace to you.

    By Anonymous Erica Martino, at 7:10 AM  

  • That was suppose to say I did not attack you personally! I added the link to your blog back in. It got lost in the editing process last night

    By Anonymous Erica Martino, at 7:14 AM  

  • Hi Jerry,
    I'm curious, Do you have a name for the guy or girl you talked to?

    By Anonymous Joe Martino, at 7:49 AM  

  • Alice,
    What do you think this verse means?
    Matthew 5:16
    In the same way, let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly Father.
    Just wondering?
    Grace and Peace be with you!

    By Anonymous Erica, at 8:22 AM  

  • Hi i got saved when i was 15 i'm 41now "backslidden" since 23ish,so i'm no raving Calvinist barely a Christian,ive argued with S Camp,DT blog,with Ken & Ingrid till i got banned..

    Butttt

    One thing i will say is where do emergents leave me,other then where i already am?

    I appreciate people dislike the ideas on the blogs i mentioned,so i will name someone who is respected across the board Brother Yun...

    Now tell me how emergent ideas would of possibly helped a guy about to be tortured,because he dared to read a PAGE of the bible? What you going to tell him "dude that page isn't even 100% truth,why bother getting tortured over it?

    Erica some of us are dying,ive tried to find God fully for 25 years till i'm sick in my stomach with frustration,so how are u going to help me? Take me to starbucks? Its laughable!

    By Blogger andy, at 8:45 AM  

  • The Gospel is not simply a fire insurance policy, which - for all intents and purposes - is what much of modern Christianity - especially the ‘Reformed’ branch - tends to treat it as. When the first complaint about a Gospel message is that it didn’t talk enough about ’sin’ and ‘hell’, then it’s missed the point.

    If you examine Jesus’ teaching, his number one subject was ‘the kingdom’ - not ‘what happens when you die’. The kingdom is a living issue, not a dying one. When your acceptance of the gospel is based on hope of heaven or fear of hell, then you’ve not fully accepted the message of the Gospel or your place in the kingdom. If it is all about “there, then” and not “here, now”, then Christianity is no more than a mental exercise.

    This is not to say that the resurrection is not something desirable, or an ultimate goal - as Paul says in Philippians 3 - but the Gospel is a call to live the life of one already saved, not to wait around and die to obtain salvation.

    What Bell is talking about is very much in line with the Hebrew mind and context of Jesus rather than the later Greek/Western interpretations which solidified during the Renaissance (in the Catholic Chruch) and the Reformation.

    For example: When does eternal life begin? Too many churches I know would suggest that it begins when we die. Rather, ‘eternal life’ begins when you have accepted the Gospel of Jesus and its accompanying grace.

    As for you "contacting a pastor" at Mars Hill - I call shenanigans, unless you can produce the name of the person you talked to at Mars Hill, and I can guarantee they aren't a pastor there (if you actually talked to someone there).

    By Blogger Chris L, at 8:57 AM  

  • Andy,

    While I'm not "emergent" (or "emerging"), I can say you're pretty much created a strawman out of what most ECM churches teach.

    By Blogger Chris L, at 8:59 AM  

  • Pastor (sic) Silva,

    I missed your comment - which, as usual was pretty much a lie from beginning to end. But hey, why let the truth get in the way when you need to slander folks to put food on your plate?

    By Blogger Chris L, at 9:19 AM  

  • How so Chris??? Its all i ever hear from them here in the UK, blah blah blah pass the latte..

    You the watchmens watchman dude?

    What message would you give Brother Yun a smuggled bible with half of it crossed out?

    By Blogger andy, at 9:21 AM  

  • Ok let me ask a point blank question here. Does a person have to personally repent of thier sins and put thier full faith and trust in Jesus in order to become a "real Christian" and have eternal life? Please everyone who comments please answer yes or no only. That way we can all start at some point. If someone says no don't bash them if someone says yes don't bash them.

    Again the question in order to be "born again" (Jesus term not mine) does a person need to personally repent (flee from) from sin (breaking God's moral law) and put thier full faith in the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on the cross and his subsequent resurrection. Please just yes or no. Once we get that central issue announced and decided for everyone then we can go on with a polite discussion. No name calling please. :-)

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 9:30 AM  

  • What message would you give Brother Yun a smuggled bible with half of it crossed out?

    I'm not sure what you're referencing here.

    If you're asking about by belief in the Bible - I believe it is 100% the inspired word of God. Here's a bit more on my view of hermeneutics.

    If you're asking about what I would tell a brother who was being persecuted for reading the Bible, I would say:

    "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

    and to take comfort in the words of Jesus to the church at Smyrna.

    Be faithful, even to the point of death, and Jesus will give you the crown of life.

    By Blogger Chris L, at 9:32 AM  

  • PJ,

    1) When does 'eternal life' begin?
    2) Is the primary thrust of the gospel focused upon what happens when you die or how you live before you die?
    3) Was Jesus life, death and resurrection ONLY a substitutionary penal atonement for individual sin, or is that just one aspect of it?

    By Blogger Chris L, at 9:42 AM  

  • Jerry,
    I will be happy to answer your question, after you answer mine. What was the name of this person you talked to at Mars?

    By Anonymous Joe Martino, at 9:42 AM  

  • Then cool!! Because every Emergent i speak to,seems half scared to make a clear statement,its like word acrobats..

    Like i said ive had my share of problems with the blogs listed..

    Through email i would say Ken is my friend,we don't agree on much..But the funny thing is i email him a question & he answers,may not be the reply i like,but he answer's and wowee in one paragraph

    By Blogger andy, at 9:44 AM  

  • Yes

    By Blogger andy, at 9:46 AM  

  • Joe,
    It was about a year ago when I talked with this man. I was running a camp program for a denomination that wanted to use your Pastors material. When I asked him I never thought a year later I would be having this conversation via the net so remembering his name was not important to me then. In hind sight I wish I would have.

    So the answer is I do not remember. How I got in contact with him was by calling your churches number that was listed on the website and telling the person who answered the phone that I wanted to ask some questions about what your church believed and they put him on.

    I am sure at this point you might accuse me of lying about talking to him and I am ok with that. I answered yours, your turn.

    Must you personally repent of your sins and trust Jesus to have eternal life?

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 9:48 AM  

  • Andy,
    I would say to you:
    Die to yourself! Lay everything in your life at the feet of Jesus! Believe in Him, His work on the cross, realize your are a sinner in need of a Savior and pray that God changes your life. Find someone who can live Jesus to you and watch God transform your life!
    Grace and peace be with you!

    By Anonymous Erica, at 9:49 AM  

  • Chris,
    Here are the answers to your questions in return answer mine please.

    1) When does 'eternal life' begin?

    The easy answer for me without getting into a long debate is you recieve eternal life at the moment you repent and have faith in Jesus alone.

    2) Is the primary thrust of the gospel focused upon what happens when you die or how you live before you die?

    Neither one is a complete answer. The primary thrust of the gospel is summed up in Matthew 28:19-20 Make disciples of all people. They gotta be a convert to be a disciple. Teach them to obey all of Jesus commands, include the one to make disciples (which again requires the be converted before being a disciple).

    3) Was Jesus life, death and resurrection ONLY a substitutionary penal atonement for individual sin, or is that just one aspect of it?

    I would have to be a fool to say it was ONLY that. However someone else would have to be a fool to say that it was not the most important aspect of it. It was Jesus primary task. Here is a quote from Jesus:
    For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."
    Luke 19:10

    Ok your turn. Yes or No?

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 9:56 AM  

  • You are right Jerry, I struggle to believe that a person violated a rather well known church policy. Which brings up a whole new list of questions for me.
    1. Why post something a year later without any corroborative evidence? Especially, when you had to know that some would question you.
    2. What credence should I give a guy who can quote some mysterious staffer?
    3. How do we know that this guy still works at the church (if he ever did?)
    Jerry, have a good one. Without a name, what you have to say doesn't mean much to me.
    Oh and to answer your question. I have lots of verses that I'd like to share, but I won't. I will abide by your rules for this question and say "yep."

    By Blogger Joe Martino, at 9:56 AM  

  • Erica,
    Is that a yes or no?

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 9:57 AM  

  • You have a church policy at your church for staff to not discuss your doctrinal beliefs with outsiders?

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 9:58 AM  

  • Cool Erica sooooooo what exactly is the differences between you and Jerry then? awwww ive soothed it all out ;-p

    By Blogger andy, at 9:59 AM  

  • Let's leave the mysterious church staffer out of it then. Have you ever watched Trees where Rob says that teaching other people to believe like we do is a waste of time? I don't need a staffer when he says it on a recorded video that he sells regularly.

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 10:00 AM  

  • Must you personally repent of your sins and trust Jesus to have eternal life?

    Since you've not yet answered my questions, I will have to give you two answers:

    1) IF you believe that eternal life begins on earth before you die:

    Yes, you have to repent of your sins (at least the ones you recognize, allowing that the Holy Spirit will continue to reveal more to you as you mature) - otherwise you would be living with the consequences of the ongoing sin and it would hinder you from being in the kingdom here and now.

    2) If you believe that eternal life is only about what happens when you die, then No I would not agree with that statement, because it is only by grace that we are saved and not by any works (which would include repentance) of which one could boast. [However, I would have to question whether or not I truly believed in Jesus' life, death, resurrection and message if I was not willing to repent.]

    Since I believe that eternal life begins now, and not when I die, and that salvation begins now, and not when I die, then yes, I believe that repentance is required.

    By Blogger Chris L, at 10:01 AM  

  • Yes I do

    By Anonymous Erica, at 10:02 AM  

  • Chris,
    ok I am guessing or posts crossed without knowing. I did answer your questions before you answered them for me. Scroll up and look above your last post and you will see my answers?

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 10:04 AM  

  • Jerry,
    Come on Man, you build an entire post around this mysterious staffer to castigate my church, call a friend of mine and my pastor a heretic (it is a series on false teachers, right?) and you want me to just say, "Well, Ok I'll forget the fact that you can't name this person."
    Jerry, I'm trying really hard to be nice which is why I said for you to have a good one. As for the policy, it is normally done in person and they don't talk about NOOMA's. What's it matter? You talked to some mysterious dude. I'll still probably check this as my wife is obviously involved here and at her blog, I've answered your question about repentance, but Dude you and I are probably done. Amending the post with the fact that you have no reference for your "deepthroat" character (That's a reference to Watergate for all of our non-history people) would be a good place to start for credibility. If you want to build your case off of the video go ahead. If you had done that, I probably wouldn't have said anything here, but you didn't do that. You used some "mysterious staffer" to bolster your case.
    Again, Have a good one

    By Blogger Joe Martino, at 10:07 AM  

  • "Let's leave the mysterious church staffer out of it then"

    hmmmmmm now i think ur on shaky ground Jerry, after all we wouldn't be posting here if you hadn't had the conversation,maybe it was a spiritual entrapment lol


    One point Eica and thks for replying..What exactly does this mean > Find someone who can live Jesus to you and watch God transform your life!

    Where does that idea come from aj

    By Blogger andy, at 10:10 AM  

  • Ok most everyone has answered. So we all agree that you must repent and have faith to be saved or born again or whichever term you prefer.

    So if that is the case then shouldn't our primary task on this earth be to tell others about this "requirement" so that they to can be saved? I agree that our faith needs to do something. However our good works are merely a platform from which to share our faith and the gospel message. Faith without works is dead, we know this, works would include personal evangelism as well. Remember Paul told Timothy not to neglect the work of an evangelist. Also Paul admonishes the church at Rome to "preach with words" the gospel.

    For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
    Romans 10:13-15

    So while doing good works is important we can not neglect the lost and dying masses who, if they die in their sins, go to hell.

    Would you all agree that a person who dies without personal repentance and faith in Jesus goes to hell?

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 10:10 AM  

  • Andy,
    I am not saying there is a difference between our beliefs. I believe the same way my pastor does! It is ponderous than isn't it?

    By Anonymous Erica, at 10:11 AM  

  • Read the original post everyone. The entire case is built on Rob Bell being a heretic with Nooma videos not the staffer. One tenth of that orignal post at MOST was about the staffer.

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 10:13 AM  

  • Andy,
    Check out Matthew 5:16. Tell me what you think after you read it. The bible talks about how the disciples studied under Jesus. Peter was studying to be a Rabbi and learned the entire OT most likely and than became a disciple of Jesus. Paul studied under some name I can not pronounce!lol
    I think the entire bible talks about the importance of reproducing yourselves in other people lives!

    By Anonymous Erica, at 10:15 AM  

  • I will invite everyone back next week around Tuesday or so as we talk about the false teaching in the Nooma video Sunday...and you can keep coming back for weeks to come as we expose the heretical teaching in these videos. Again the whole thing is built around Rob and his heretical videos....not the staffer. And that is a fact.

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 10:16 AM  

  • The Peter rabbi thing? Where did that come from? I am not sure I have ever heard that Peter was studying to become a Rabbi. He actually was an outcast for the Rabbinical circles because of where he was from as far as I have ever understood. I am not saying I am right, I just wanted to know what book or such you read about him studying to be a Rabbi cause I would like to see that because it is new for me.

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 10:18 AM  

  • Jerry,
    You have a good day bud. I pray that God richly rewards you for your efforts on this post.
    ;)

    By Blogger Joe Martino, at 10:19 AM  

  • PJ,

    We cross-posted - I saw that right after I hit "publish"...

    By Blogger Chris L, at 10:22 AM  

  • I agree with you Jerry. However, in your post you gave the illustration of someone laying on the street being afraid of dying and going to Hell and you asked a staff member about this remember?
    I believe that if we live a life separated from Jesus we will spend eternity separated from him! Is it in literal fire. Most likely! However I would not give my life up on this. I would however give my life up on the fact that Jesus Christ lived a perfect life and died on the cross paying my debt. He tells me to believe in Him, realize I am a sinner and take up my cross and follow him! That is what I share with others! Jesus did not die to save us from Hell. He died that I might have life! Why not share the good news of what Jesus did instead of the consequences?
    Jesus changes lives! That is what I believe and that is what is preached at my church on a regular basis!

    By Anonymous Erica, at 10:23 AM  

  • Why would you keep preaching on something that is not true?

    By Anonymous Erica, at 10:25 AM  

  • Erica i will read it tks..

    My friends a Messianic Jew,interestingly she as serious issues with Rob and his ideas on Rabbinic Judaism (right term?)..

    I don't know Jerry from a hole in the wall, but i know her and respect her highly..Rob seems to upset a lot of people..

    By Blogger andy, at 10:31 AM  

  • Erica,
    Have you watched the videos? All of them? If not let me know and I will buy you a set. Rob says what I qoute him as saying. If it is not what he means he ought to look into changing the videos because that is certainly how he comes across. He literally says in one of the other videos that Peter sank on the water NOT because he lacked faith in Jesus but because he lacked faith in himself. The word faith there, if we go back to the original Greek language means lack of faith in Christ. Many people are being led astray by these videos and I am trying to equip my church to expose these false teachings to thier family and loved ones so that they do not die in their sins but so that they can come to truly know the savior.

    This is because I love people, not because I am a Rob Bell hater. I would encourage you to keep checking back here in the weeks to come as I post, and then you can counter post the other side of the coin and people can decide for themselves. We will be a team of sorts. Sound good?

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 10:32 AM  

  • I learned it in Bible College but you are more than welcome to checkout this site!http://cometozion.org/Torah%20Scholar.htm Jewish boys learned the Torah! When they were older they would than study under a Rabbi! You will also hear about it in the Nooma video Dust.

    By Anonymous Erica, at 10:35 AM  

  • Have you ever watched Trees where Rob says that teaching other people to believe like we do is a waste of time?
    I would suggest that your question is a bit of a straw man, in which you have mischaracterized what Bell said.
    Faith without works is dead, we know this, works would include personal evangelism as well. Remember Paul told Timothy not to neglect the work of an evangelist. Also Paul admonishes the church at Rome to "preach with words" the gospel.
    I think part of the problem here is that you're cherry-picking "evangelism" (which yes, IS mentioned as a work we should be doing) from a MUCH bigger and more extensive list of things we are commanded to do as part of the kingdom - things that too often get shunted aside as "the social gospel".

    To quote missionary E. Stanley Jones, who I believe Bell has quoted before, though:
    An individual gospel without a social gospel is a soul without a body and a social gospel without an individual gospel is a body without a soul. One is a ghost and the other a corpse.

    The point of trees was that much of the focus on modern evangelism stops at the individual implications of the gospel (belief, repentence), and misses the purposes for which we were saved.

    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    When your focus is simply on evangelism, paying lip service to the overarching purpose of that salvation, you're not doing much more than participating in a viral marketing campaign for fire insurance.

    By Blogger Chris L, at 10:37 AM  

  • Sure we can do that!
    BTW, I have see a lot of them. I have not see this particular one but one of the men in our house church has all of them so I will watch and get back to you! How does that sound?
    I think understand the Jewish history will help you better understand the Nooma video dust! That site I suggested has a lot of good things in it. Check it out when you get a chance. Check out this site as well!
    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/i-now-have-the-dust-of-a-rabbi-on-me/
    and if you still have time, you can read my thoughts here
    http://www.joemartino.name/erica/2008/01/nooma-dust.html
    Let me know what you think!
    Grace and Peace be with you!
    Oh BTW, we are doing a verse by verse study on Philippians. Are your teachings online?

    By Anonymous Erica, at 10:42 AM  

  • Jerry,

    You're also mischaraterizing what Bell said in Dust. I happen to know where he got that particular teaching - a Reformed pastor who took him on a tour of Israel & Turkey back in 2003.

    The source of that particular teaching is Ray VanderLaan, who picked it up from a number of Messianic Jewish sources and commentaries on first-century understanding of the relationship between rabbi (pre-70AD) and talmid.

    From this source:

    The decision to follow a rabbi as a talmid meant total commitment in the first century as it does today. Since a talmid was totally devoted to becoming like the rabbi he would have spent his entire time listening and observing the teacher to know how to understand the Scripture and how to put it into practice. Jesus describes his relationship to his disciples in exactly this way (Matt. 10:24-25; Luke 6:40) He chose them to be with him (Mark 3:13-19) so they could be like him (John 13:15).

    Most students sought out the rabbis they wished to follow. This happened to Jesus on occasion (Mark 5:19; Luke 9:57). There were a few exceptional rabbis who were famous for seeking out their own students. If a student wanted to study with a rabbi he would ask if he might 'follow' the rabbi. The rabbi would consider the students potential to become like him and whether he would make the commitment necessary. It is likely most students were turned away. Some of course were invited to 'follow me'. This indicated the rabbi believed the potential talmid had the ability and commitment to become like him. It would be a remarkable affirmation of the confidence the teacher had in the student. In that light, consider whether the disciples of Jesus were talmidim as understood by the people of his time. They were to be 'with' him (Mark 3:13-19); to follow him (Mark 1:16-20); to live by his teaching (John 8:31); were to imitate his actions (John 13:13-15); were to make everything else secondary to their learning from the rabbi (Luke 14:26).

    This may explain Peter's walking on water (Matt. 14:22-33). When Jesus (the rabbi) walked on water, Peter (the talmid) wanted to be like him. Certainly Peter had not walked on water before nor could he have imagined being able to do it. However, if the teacher, who chose me because he believed I could be like him, can do it so must I. And he did! It was a miracle but he was just like the rabbi! And then...he doubted. Doubted what? Traditionally we have seen he doubted Jesus' power. Maybe, but Jesus was still standing on the water. I believe Peter doubted himself, or maybe better his capacity to be empowered by Jesus. Jesus response 'why did you doubt' (14:31) then means 'why did you doubt I could empower you to be like me'?

    That is a crucial message for the talmid of today. We must believe that Jesus calls us to be disciples because he knows he can so instruct, empower, and fill us with his Spirit that we can be like him (at least in our actions). We must believe in ourselves! Otherwise we will doubt that he can use us and as a result we will not be like him.


    This is not a prosperity-gospel or self-esteem gospel message.

    By Blogger Chris L, at 10:45 AM  

  • Andy,
    Check out he Agendaless love site!

    By Anonymous Erica, at 10:46 AM  

  • cool.

    Yes what I teach is online. However only the last four weeks on a rotating basis. So basically next Sunday the oldest sermon will drop off and the newest one will be added. You can go to www.xroadsfellowship.com and click on the sermon link on the left to get to the sermon page. We have all the older stuff archived so if you wanted to get some of it you would just need to let me know. Some of it may not make as much sense as each week builds on what was previously taught.

    BTW it is all just audio. No cool video stuff, we aren't that high tech......yet!

    By Blogger Pastor Jerry, at 10:47 AM  

  • Thats not correct Erica,rabbi came into existence in 7 AD..

    Even Ben Witherington as pointed out this error in Robs teaching

    quote "Having spoken of the promise of his writings and speaking engagements and videos, it is necessary in all fairness to turn around and talk about the problems. I will stick to a few major ones in the way he handles the Bible and issues of orthodoxy and orthopraxy. First of all it seems clear that Rob, in his valid attempt to read Jesus and the NT writers in the context of early Judaism, has not used good enough sources to really help him understand the difference between Judaism prior to the two Jewish wars in the first and second centuries A.D, and later Mishnaic and Talmudic Judaism.

    Jesus was certainly not a rabbi in the later Mishnaic sense, much less like modern ordained rabbis. It is telling that the only time Jesus is ever really called rabbi by any of his followers is when Judas does so when he is betraying Jesus with a kiss. Jesus' approach to the Torah is not like later rabbis in various ways, not the least of which is that he does not cite (indeed he often contrasts his teaching with) the oral traditions of the elders, such as Hillel or Shammai and the like. Jesus spoke on his own independent authority. At times Rob seems too uncritical in his reading of sources like the truly dated works of Alfred Edersheim, and apparently he spends too much time listening to folks like Ray Vanderlaan, a local teacher in the Grand Rapids area who doesn't really much understand the differences between medieval Jewish rabbis and the context and ethos of teachers in early Judaism of Jesus' day. Rob needs to read some viable sources on early Judaism, for example some of the work of Craig Evans or George Nickelsburg or Jacob Neusner if he wants to paint the picture of the Jewish Jesus using the right hews, tones, and features.end

    Training would of been to be a Pharisee not a Rabbi,and i doubt Peter took training in that,but yes Paul did..

    As my friend as also pointed out its very questionable if Jesus would of been considered for any teaching with his questionable parenthood

    By Blogger andy, at 10:49 AM  

  • Andy,

    It has been pointed out (to BW3, as well) that 'rabbi' was a term used pre-70 AD for learned teachers, though most scholars will differentiate these from post-70 AD mishnaic rabbis by calling them 'sages'.

    In the pre-mishnaic sense, Jesus was a rabbi (he is even called this by six different social groups in the Bible!) or a 'sage'. The teaching system Rob outlines is well-documented by a number of Christian and Jewish scholars working in Israel - including Brad Young, David Bivin, Roy Blizzard, marvin Wilson, Roy Moseley and others.

    So, some of the criticism of Bell's use of "Rabbi" in this teaching is because of the confusion in terminology between pre-70 "Rabbi" (aka sage) and post-70 "Rabbi" - which is carried on in Orthodox Judiasm.

    There is more on this here and here.

    By Blogger Chris L, at 11:03 AM  

  • Jerry,

    Thank you for the kind words.

    Not I, nor my blog, is out of control. You may not like what you read but it doesn't mean I am out of control.

    While you may not like my use of THREE words (and I noted I was using hyperbole throughout the post) it doesn't mean I have committed any sin. If you think the words are inappropriate, then by all means do not use them. Certainly you should not offend your conscience.

    What I find interesting is that you focused on the words I used and never say a peep about the real issue.........Steve Camp and people like him ravaging the Church in Jesus name with their hateful, judgmental speech and writing.

    Did you actually read my post on inerrancy? My primary issue is with the word and what it conveys to the people. It gives them a false sense about the Scripture and it conveys a meaning that it not true.

    So when you use the word inerrant.....what do you mean?

    Jerry, I assume you have got some education and know what a circular argument is? To say that scripture attests to itself is a circular argument.

    Now, I happen to believe that the Bible is the Word of God. Did I write otherwise?

    You see if you can make me into a "he doesn't believe the Bible" person then you can dismiss me. Sorry, I believe it. What verse would you like to talk about?

    As to Erica's comment about evangelism. Evangelism as most Evangelicals don't do it is a waste of time. Most Evangelicals never do anything evangelistic. The few that do do it use methodology that is ineffective and most often drives people away.

    Tracts, street corner preaching, attractional evangelism certainly reach a few but they are not effective in the postmodern world. The message doesn't change but the methodology does.

    In another post you mention using "movies" That is a "new" methodology....one which Tozer in his book "The Evils of the Religious Movie" condemns. I for one think you are using an excellent method for reaching people.

    Jerry, you have got a "picture" of me built up in your head. I submit you have been watching to much fantasy island and you have me mixed in with the images :)

    Bruce

    By Anonymous Bruce Gerencser, at 11:05 AM  

  • I really don't have to say much more! Chris L, is far more knowledgeable than I am on the subject and I was hoping he would pipe in! Thanks Chris L!
    Bruce, that was a great way to explain Evangelism! You are right!

    By Anonymous Erica, at 11:27 AM  

  • This post has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger andy, at 11:35 AM  

  • Jerry,

    One other thing you might consider with this particular "series" - are you truly being a 'charitable listener', or are you specifically looking to find fault in a Christian brother?

    Not every difference in opinion is heresy - particularly the further you move away from belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and the closer you move toward systematic theological teachings. I would suggest that what you labeled "another gospel" is nowhere near what Paul was describing in those serious terms.

    Rather, I would suggest the the closer you hold theological 'systems' to the level of inerrancy of scripture, the closer it becomes to becoming "another gospel".

    In the case of "trees", a call to fulfill being a disciple, and emphasizing ALL of what that entails (which is much larger and broader than making converts) is not 'another gospel' - but living IN the Gospel of Jesus and his teaching of the kingdom.

    By Blogger Chris L, at 11:36 AM  

  • Hi Chris i meant 1st cent....

    Yes your correct,the confusion comes from the meaning of the word ie teacher or a Rabbi that as received Rabbinical ordination..

    The term Rabbi was first used in reference to the Rabbis of the Sanhedrin during the first century C.E. When the term Rabbi is mentioned it should be spelt harav to implied scholarship and not just wise one.


    If Rob means that Peter or Jesus trained to be Rabbi's he is incorrect..One why would the Word need to be taught the mea
    ning of the bible,and as Pharisee metamorphised into the Rabbi around the 1st Cent,it would mean they trained to be Pharisee's,which strikes me as odd considerng their conflict with them..


    Paul describes himself as once a Pharisee and not a Rabbi,unless your arguing there were two schools one teaching Rabbis and another Pharisees?

    By Blogger andy, at 11:40 AM  

  • Correction If Rob means they trained to be "Rabbi's" in the Pharisee's line, i guess he could be correct..

    By Blogger andy, at 11:44 AM  

  • Andy,

    There were two major "schools" of thought in the first century - 1) that based on the priesthood and Torah only, and 2) that based on all of the Tanakh (as we know it now) and its oral interpretation (which was not one interpretation, as we may think, but a body of interpretations).

    The first one (priesthood) had two branches - the Essenes (who became separatists) and the Sadducees (who were beholden to Herod and Rome). The second - called the hasidim, "pious ones" (a positive connotation) had two major branches - zealotry (which believe that the kingdom of God would come via political and military force) and pharisee (which believed that the kingdom of God came through belief and service, not political intrigue).

    Within phariseeism, there were (at least) seven types of pharisee (see more here), of which only one was considered truly following the way God desired. "Pharisee" could be used both to describe one's theology or one's political affiliation.

    Jesus' theology most resembled the theology of the "seventh" (good) type of pharisee (for more discussion on this, see Brad Young's "Jesus the Jewish Theologian" and "Meet the Rabbis"), and it should be noted that Hillel and others of this "Seventh type" said MUCH worse things about the pharisees, in general, than Jesus did, with 'hypocrites!' being the standard hue and cry against them.

    So, with a few key differences (based on WHO Jesus was and his interpretation of 'kingdom'), his theology was very similar to the ideal "seventh" type of pharisee, but not the political designation of "pharisee".

    As to his relationship with his talmidim and the way they interacted with other people in Israel - it is consistent with the practice of the Second Temple 'sages' (hasidim), but different in a number of ways from later mishnaic rabbinism.

    By Blogger Chris L, at 11:51 AM  

  • Ok this could very well be semantics..

    So Chris simple question,when you were "qualified" in Rabbi school of Jesus time,did you become a Pharisee?

    By Blogger andy, at 11:51 AM  

  • If Rob means they trained to be "Rabbi's" in the Pharisee's line, i guess he could be correct..

    I think that's the point I was trying to make :)

    Both Rob, RVL and others don't always distinguish between pre- and post-70 AD rabbinism in their shorter teachings (like NOOMA for Rob). Being familiar with RVL moreso than Rob, though, he does outline this in much more additional detail in his 2-day seminars.

    By Blogger Chris L, at 11:53 AM  

  • Your missing my point..Your arguing that Peter was schooled or Peter's teacher was schooled i.e Jesus..

    My question is who were they schooled by,and what was the hopeful destination of these students!

    I'm saying they were "enroled" in Pharisee school and that was there hopeful distination..

    By Blogger andy, at 11:55 AM  

  • This post has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger andy, at 11:57 AM  

  • okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk we got there.So i wouldn't be doing Rob a injustice,to says he says Rabbi because he dislikes the connotation they were trained by Pharisees?

    By Blogger andy, at 11:58 AM  

  • when you were "qualified" in Rabbi school of Jesus time,did you become a Pharisee?

    You could be a "Pharisee" without completing training under a sage/rabbi - more like a political affiliation. Paul, being a Pharisee of Pharisees, was making a positive statement laying out his qualifications as a "qualified" (using your terms) instructor, and identifying his belief with the "seventh" school of pharisee thought.

    I'm not sure there's a modern equivalent way to explain it (at least in a short fashion). Let me see if I can think of a good analogy...

    In the meantime, consider this:

    In the Sanhedrin, the Sadducees had 65 seats and the Pharisees had 5 seats. Of these 5 seats, we know 3 by name - Niccodemus, Joseph of Aramathea and Gamaliel. Each of these three was either a follower of Jesus, or at least showed some sympathy to his followers. As Pharisees (politically), they could hold these seats on the Sanhedrin. However, if they held all of the same beliefs (pharisee theology) but didn't hold an affiliation with the title "Pharisee", they would not have been able to.

    Its not a perfect example, but maybe it gets the point across...

    By Blogger Chris L, at 12:01 PM  

  • So i wouldn't be doing Rob a injustice,to says he says Rabbi because he dislikes the connotation they were trained by Pharisees?
    He says "rabbi", as that (or 'hasid') was the word they used (before it took on MUCH more connotation). I don't know if it's the connotation he's avoiding though. I suspect its the former, rather than the latter

    By Blogger Chris L, at 12:03 PM  

  • noooooooooooooooo its a wonderful example!!! Because as you rightly say they couldn't be there unless they were 1) trained in "pharisee school lol or political connections or were Sadducee's..

    By Blogger andy, at 12:04 PM  

  • OK ive got one question for you Chris..

    If Jesus passed through this training..Why were the Pharisees so amazed at His knowledge,why did they say we know this guy,we know His mum and His brothers and sisters...

    Why didn't they say "wowee he always was a great student ;-)

    By Blogger andy, at 12:10 PM  

  • All of this argument over words is really silly. It is this kind of thing that just serves to divide the body of Christ even further. We can disagree on the minor points while still getting the big picture...and that is the Gospel. And yes...the Gospel is a very specific thing...repent from your sins and believe in Christ the Son of God our Savior. Period...all the semantics about whether it is for here on earth or purely for the after life are pointless. From my view point we are obviously supposed to live out a Christ-like life. That is a Biblical truth. I also believe that the Holy Spirit will push us towards that end. We, as fleshly people, will always fall short and cannot live like that of our own will. We have to lay our total dependence on Christ. I also believe that, and this is sort of where I have an issue with "emergents", that the end goal was not bringing the kingdom down to earth in a social gospel kind of way. Why would that be the point when He is going to destroy this world? The point is that people come to know Christ...end of story. We get so bogged down in these things that we forget the point of it all. Preach the TRUE Gospel and people will turn from their sin that leads to destruction/hell and trust in the Savior. Stop arguing and agree on that! If you are so caught up in this and you just know you are right and have a hard time letting go than at least follow the words of Scripture...do not cast your pearls before swine. Let it go there. Remember the words of 1 John 3:11 "For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another"...as believers love Christ first and love your brothers in Christ in the same fashion.

    By Anonymous Drew, at 12:31 PM  

  • Drew,

    There is a social component to the gospel. Matthew 25 makes that very clear. How will we be judged some day? Quoting Keith Green's song on Matt 25 "by the things we did and did not do."

    Eschatology lies at the heart of this issue. If you believe in the imminent return of Jesus, the rapture then it seems logical for you NOT to concern yourself with social issues. "Gettin ready today, pullin out tomorrow"

    For those of us who are of a postmil or amil persuasion we see things differently. We tend to have a longer view of the future.

    For example, I do not believe in the imminent return of Christ.According to 2 thes 2 (there's that Bible I don't believe) there are things that must take place first. Those things have NOT happened and as a result the return of Christ can not be called imminent. It could be soon but not imminent.

    I have written a more complete explanation on the evangelism issue on my blog.

    Bruce Gerencser

    By Blogger